Thank you sooo much Family Life and Mark Driscoll. I sobbed listening to his message. It is the cry of every Christian woman I know for the men in ther lives to take ownership of these issues. To see it as abusive....becase it is so emotionally abusive to be in a "Christian " marriage where this goes on. I know a lot of broken Christian women....hearts, personhood, dreams.....all shattered because men won't be real men....and spnd their lives making excuses and blaming. I wish I knew men like Mark Driscoll...they are a Rarity. That is sad.
Jesus is the only perfect man to ever live. Because most men fail to look to Him as our example, there exists 2 extremes in men: chauvinism and cowardice. Pastor Mark Driscoll preaches to men about being real men who love God and serve their family well in this sermon from Trial.
Betrothal: Should We Kiss Courtship Goodbye?
By Israel Wayne
Courtship is taking the nation by storm. It seems any homeschool convention of substance has an "expert" on marriage preparation who usually explains how courtship is a wise and even "Biblical" alternative to dating. Even the secular media is jumping on the bandwagon, talking about the newest hair-brained scheme of these radical homeschoolers. "What will they think of next?!"
This may come as a surprise to many, but I don’t believe courtship is Biblical. In fact, I don’t even think it is pragmatically wise. From the beginning, I’ve had reservations about it, but now that I’ve had a chance to observe the "courtship movement" for a while, my fears are confirmed. It has created some problematic situations.
Don’t misunderstand; I’m not in support of dating! I believe the promiscuous American dating scene is definitely preparation for divorce, not marriage. The consequences of giving your heart to one person after another, only to have it sent through the meat grinder and handed back to you, is a practice that should have died out with the dinosaurs. Non-committed romantic relationships ought to be absent from a young person’s life. We all need to "kiss dating goodbye."
The question is, however, "Is courtship the solution to America’s dating crisis?" From what I have observed, I feel I can say emphatically, "No, it is not!"
Chapter And Verse On Courtship
First of all, nowhere in Scripture do we find the term, "Courtship." It doesn’t exist in the Bible. Actually, neither does the concept. As hard as you may look, there are no "courting couples" in the Bible. That should be our first clue that this is not a completely "Biblical" idea.
...
"Most people aren't afraid of true love, they are scared of the path it takes to get there. They want to stay pure, and they don't want the impure things that most often come with the dating world. It's hard to find people that want to keep a relationship pure, so it looks like they are avoiding love." -- Danny akaSmartBlonde on Why do some families fear romantic relationships?
"Let me reiterate the point on engagement being a contract. When I ask a girl to marry me she has two choices: accept or decline.
If she accepts, the process of finding a place to live, planning the wedding and all that other stuff begins. She takes the engagement ring, and puts it on as a public declaration of commitment to marry, and we work toward getting married.
All of the second guessing, and compatibility checking happen before that point. I will not ask a girl to marry me unless I am absolutely positively sure I can spend the rest of my life with her. I expect the same thing from her. If she says yes, then by golly ("Leave it to Beaver" moment ) she had better be sure as well.
I fail to see any logic in the position that engagement is where you check to make sure you can marry. Why the heck did you say you would marry unless you actually intended to? This whole wishy washy "maybe, maybe not" business is for the pre engagement stuff.
Serious dating implies: Serious. Dating." -- Nathan LHS#25 on Engagements - should they always be permanent?
Tsheej wrote:
Christi Rose wrote:
Marlana wrote:
college is a want, not a necessity as Dave Ramsey says. I would far rather have a man who developed skills and stayed out of debt than a man who went to college and had debt.
I would have to disagree. College is a necessity in many fields and debt is an absolute necessity in some of those fields as well. For example, I can't imagine anyone (besides the exceptionally intelligent or recipients of inheritances or rich parents) actually making it through medical school without any debt.
I disagree. I made an absolute commitment that I was not going to go into debt at college. I didn't even though there was no way I could afford college the Lord provided. Tuition was $25000/a year. I stepped out in faith and God honored that.
I also disagree that college is a necessity. I don't care what trade you are there are just as good if not better ways one can obtain it other than college. Medical school as we know it is a bunch of bunk. Live by the world's way, die by the world's way.
Tsheej is correct. There is a way - most of us just are not willing to pay the price.
I quote Moneysavingmom.com below. Her husband went through law school while they were married, she had a baby in school and never worked. They bought all of their household items and food for $35 a week - lived without a car and cell phone.
Believe me, she did not live off other people, either.
It takes work and effort to stay out of debt. Believe me, I know.
It takes sacrifice, it takes commitment, it takes self-discipline. It means you have to forgo some things others might think you're entitled to, you have to stop worrying what the Jones family thinks, and you probably will come across as rather weird to a number of people.
We've hit a lot of financial rough spots in the six years my husband and I have been married and life has thrown us a number of unexpected curve balls. But that's life, isn't it? No one is free from crisis or difficulty in some form or another.
Read the full article. http://www.moneysavingmom.com/money_saving_mom/2009/04/the-emotional-benefits-to-becoming-debtfree.html
For everything she does need, she asks, "Is there another option?" I'm amazed at what she is able to find by just thinking on her own.
Here's another great article of hers. This is on baby necessities (since no one would believe me since I do not have a child).
http://www.moneysavingmom.com/money_saving_mom/2009/02/having-a-baby-without-breaking-the-bank-diapers.html
DON'T MARRY SOMEONE WITH COLLEGE DEBT.
Let him pay it off first. And I hold anyone who pays off debt and chooses a better way to live in high regard.
Marlana wrote: I'm give out of these forums.
I said I wanted to live different than the world. This is the responses I received:
:: you might go in debt for childbirth.
:: your husband might decide to work at a Christian school and send your kids there.
:: your uterus might rip open.
:: your husband's calling may change.
:: your husband might start making you cook junk food or steak.
:: your husband one day may find your rules about TV/video games/movies burdensome.
:: your husband could molest your children, forcing you to divorce.
:: your teenage daughter could get pregnant and cause you to temporarily close your ministry.
:: your husband might make you get divorce.
:: you are in danger of putting your ministry before your family.
:: your rules could cause you to become the domineering wife.
:: you probably should remain single.
__________
I don't think anyone (outside Tsheej) said:
:: when the Lord calls, he provides.
:: Christians are called to live apart from the world. If bumps happen, your uterus rips, okay you'll "lighten up" a bit, but I'm glad your are committed to live apart from the world.
Olay...you notice how much negativity is in that list...if ya'll truly expect all those things to happen, 1.) I'm not sure why you would consider marriage, 2.) I'm not sure why you haven't crawled under a bridge and become a hermit.
Matt wrote:
I do have a few unwavering convictions, such as that "all have sinned and come short of the glory of God, being justified by His grace..." I also have the unwavering conviction that sin no more has dominion over me and every other believer; if we think it does, well, that's another lie we tell ourselves. Beyond that, every other "conviction" has been upended, and I have come to realize that they were no more than strongly held opinions.
But the convictions I have set forth are as real to me as my desperate need for God.
...
But we did not share the same vision. He was a money-maker and a money-giver, and while I had respect for him, I did not agree with his work hours. He did not share the same vision for broken in another country. Even more, I’m not sure he’d home school under duress.
Tsheej is right. It is not unreasonable for a man to ask a person to memorize a language or give up popular culture for the cause of Christ. You know, if a person can’t handle something as simple as giving up a TV, they aren’t cut for the life in another country that we have espoused. Life’s going to be a lot more uncomfortable than not having a TV.
TV is like step one out of 1000 students. If we can't get past step one, we're not going to get anywhere. This is why I said, when I marry a man that wants to get to step 1000, he's sure not going to find step one a burden.
Christi Rose wrote:
Tsheej wrote: Its kinda sad that so many people on this forum have had their hopes and dreams shattered that they find it necessary to try and feed us with a dose of realism.
Has it occurred to you that when you find yourself part of a minority group (conservative Christian homeschoolers) and yet still hold to an extreme and minority view even among them... maybe, just maybe, you're the one missing something, not them? Or is it that you've just achieved ultimate knowledge that the rest of us lesser beings cannot possibly comprehend?
Christi Rose, I do not know your specific referal (our "convictions" or the "no compromise part"), but I challenge you with this question: since when have the majority ever been right about anything?
Francis Schaeffer said it this way: ideas start with the philosophers, trickle down into high art, art for the masses, then into popular culture and from popular culture into the church. This tends to happen without anyone in the church, even the supposed "conservative" group, being aware of it.
Sometimes I go to the Longview mall and just sit and watch the people -- their language, the way they dress, their conversation, the "give me," all this stuff that going on.
But. But. These same ideologies are going on in the church.
Divorce rates are high in the church. And it's not because people aren't compromising enough. It's because they are -- they are allowing all this stuff from the world to come into their homes and eat them alive.
Katiedid wrote: As to your "I could not list": Yes You Can! You do not want to, and while I agree with most of them as being highly desirable (other than the TV) and even biblical goals to aim for, you are not always able to control all of the events of life and you may for example find yourself in debt no matter how responsible you are! My husband and I are models of finacial responsibility. We at our young age are totally out of debt including our home and car. We save for a rainy day. However, as most of the world, we are just one little setback away from debt. All of the complications in my pregnency and delivery cost a fortune. If not for insurance we would have been at least 25,000 in debt. Life happens and you have to roll with the punches. If my husband lost his job, the expensive health food we are currently eating, could become impossible. I could be forced to make choices based on cost not only on if it is organic, and all of the other things I currently choose based on. We have friends in this situation. They are now eating a lot of macaroni and cheese, ramon soup, and hot dogs because those are very inexpensive thing to eat and they are trying to avoid as much debt as possible till they get another job.
I debated on not responding to this because I know I will be misunderstood or misquoted. So before I even speak, I want to disclaim:
I am not suggesting that I can control every situation, and I'm not saying God can't -- or won't -- slap down every bit of my entire life savings. I'm not saying that.
Hope that's clear.
I am going to say that many people in the world are struggling because they are limited by their lifestyle. People are limited by how they think.
If they think their income must come from the factory job -- and the factory isn't employing and neither is Wal-mart -- they are going to struggle.
If they think they have to buy all their food at a grocery story, they are limiting their lifestyle to a grocery store, and they may struggle for food when the money runs dry. It's possible not to shop at one, though. My parents shopped for less than $100 a month (though more if you add the gardening and hunting cost).
If they think they have to take out a house payment because they make only $2000 a month and couldn't ever save up enough, they are limiting their lifestyle to debt.
Again, remember the disclaimer. I'm not saying God can't slap down my savings or a drought kill my garden. But I have made a personal commitment to do anything in my responsibility to stay out of debt.
You guys act like my convictions are unreasonable. I don't have them to be mean or bossy. But I know what it takes in this world (no, actually, I don't -- I've just barely tasted what it takes), and I know that it costs to follow Jesus.
The day we sign our marriage license we are making a commitment that together we will fulfill our vision and calling -- and that together we will hold each other accountable....and that when one one of us feels like we're going to collapse, we will pick him or her up, and we will remind the other person of their conviction and calling.
The problem isn't my convictions. The problem is: most people aren't willing to hold onto theirs, and they aren't willing to hold their spouse to the calling that was so near their minds the day they married.
Katiedid wrote:
Marlana wrote:
I will NEVER sign divorce papers with my two hands, no indeed, never.
I'm frustrated with myself because I can't convey what I'm trying to say.
I have no intention of forcing my husband to anything. But my list: no debt, no public schooling, no consistently making me cook junk food, missions-family bound -- what is so difficult about finding a person who shares those conviction? (Understanding, of course, that only God brings a couple together.)
I'm saying this: I must start marriage with a vision for the two of us. And from that base our conviction stem.
Sadly in our society, not signing divorce papers will not stop your spouse from divorcing you for any reason that enters their mind! I also am not sure you should be so adamant about never divorcing. What if your husband should molest your children? What if he is not in the least remorseful of this and will not repent and stop?
Well, let him sue me for divorce; I'm not going to sign divorce papers. lol Seriously, how far are we willing to go to keep our vows? -- that's the question.
Quote: I agree with you that you need to start your marriage with a vision and plan that you both feel is from God and agree with, I just disagree that it is written in stone and will never change. God may change you, your husband, and your plans at any time. You may have to give up your family ministry because you raise a child who is rebellious. It can happen in even the best familys. The promise about children not departing is "when they are old!" I know a family that was forced to leave the mission field, because their 13 year old daughter became pregnant, and they were being wonderful parents and doing all the right things.
I'd never say missionary families are perfect. One of my best friends in HS was an MK, and he told horror stories about boarding school. Causes have effects.
When God calls a person, he gives he or she the ability to complete the work. Sometimes there are bumps in the road, sometimes trials seem to block the vision, and sometimes flights are delayed -- no one is denying this -- but perseverance, perseverance.
Again, the question is: how much will you go to keep your calling?
Marlana wrote:
PamelaVV wrote:
Christi Rose wrote: It doesn't matter if you have the "same vision" or share all the same convictions. I cannot name a single person who has remained exactly the same, from their twenties to the end of their life. The idea really just defies logic.
I think this is why Marlana believes she should hold to her convictions so strongly, so that if her husband's waver at some point...she can continue to hold him to them. That's if I understand her intended approach...
Practically speaking, I can only see this working if you start the same and never change or if one person absolutely defers to the other. I think this is the case in many home school homes where Mom ultimately calls the shots because she has the stronger/stricter convictions.
You're on the track.
Think about it this way, Christi. If you and your husband were called to go be missionaries of X country, you and your family might have to change what you wear. I had a friend, for example, who wore pants in Texas, but she wears dresses in her African village.
You see, when God has called a family for a specific ministry, it comes with its convictions.
I could not:
Live with debt
Have my children in a school
Have a TV on
Feed my family bad food
Have barriers in my house
-- not and have a home open to hurting people who need a family example.
I know the argument:
Quote: God has established the man as the head of the family. For good or bad, the buck stops with him. Yes, he should discuss it with his wife and use her as his God-ordained helpmeet, but whether he is making sense or not, the woman should follow his leading.
But my husband needs his convictions to also be my convictions. This world is not a world of comfort anymore, folks. And when the kids get a disease, her husband is in jail, and the authorities are trying to monitor their kids "schooling," the woman needs to have the convictions, too.
Many people get burned out or can't face the next day because they lack conviction or passion.
This is totally true...If I were to kick the bucket I would want my wife to be able to carry on without me with the same conviction and passion as before. If we were seperated and jailed, I would want peace in the fact that she has the backbone to walk tall in Christ no matter what.
Take a look at the Elliot's. Jim Elliot was killed by the Auca Indians in Ecuador. Because Elizabeth had the same unity of spirit and conviction, she was able to go in, taking her children with her, and live with the tribe that killed her husband and evangelize them and save them from a typhoid epidemic. That, my friend's takes a woman of conviction.
It took a woman of conviction to go without seeing her husband, David Livingston for years on end, as he traversed the Continent of Africa while her ailing health kept her back and England and the last time she saw him alive, his body was marred specimen of what he used to be physically, because of the toll the harsh environment and diseases took on him. They had a united vision and mission that transcended all these difficulties.
And no, this does not mean that we don't change. The longer I stay the course God has called me to, the more I become what he intended. You should change because you are holding each other to a higher standard of excellence.
When American Artist Mitchell Tolle decided he was going to paint 200 pictures in 6 months and make a publish a book of pictures. He asked his wife and a couple of others to hold him accountable. After two weeks of working 20hrs a day 7 days a week, he was ready to give up and he said as much to his wife. His wife said no way and put him back to work. Then she ordered in a hot tub and told him anytime his back was feeling sore to jump in the hot tub and get back to work. Without her, he would have quit. Six months later his gallery of originals was showcased and the grand launch for the book was happening that same night. The line for autographs was so long he was signing books all night and his children had to tape the pencil to his hand he was so tired. He literally sold millions of dollars in paintings that night and jump started his renown as one of the world's best watercolor painters. But his wife had the gall to hold him to the line because she knew she wouldn't like what was left of him if she let him quit.
Matt wrote:
Well, Tsheej, I thank you for your clarification. There are, however, some things I do not agree with and/or have questions about, and I'd like to dwell on them here.
You said "Convictions are a requirement of marriage." Says who? If it's in the Scripture, give me book, chapter, and verse on that.
I do. Whether its obligatory for anyone else, I'm not too worried about that since I'm accountable to God how I live my life.
Quote:
Your last paragraph was both enlightening and puzzling. You stated that TV is as destructive to you as alcohol is to an alcoholic. Does that mean you had a a television addiction like as an alcoholic would to alcohol? If that be the case, then I can see why it is good for YOU to stay away from it, and to hold strong convictions on it. However, I do not think it would be right to impose that conviction on everyone else. "Each man has his own gift..."
The reverse is also true. I can't tell you how many times I have had to choose between maintaining the purity of my conscience and spending time with friends because of this issue. In no way, shape or form is it truly healthy for anyone. At best, it is merely neutral...but you would be hard pressed to derive benefits from television that are not also accompanied by proportionate evils.
Quote:
I appreciate your concern about my parent's choice to enjoy an alcoholic beverage, but you do not know my parents so please do not pass judgment on them for choosing a "destructive" compromise. Up until a few months ago my dad wouldn't have considered enjoying a glass of wine, but that was mainly because of religious upbringing. He still is able to fulfill his "calling" as a father and husband, because it is not an addiction. He doesn't feel the need to have a glass of spirits every day. It doesn't control his life. But if it did, and he broke that addiction, he certainly wouldn't advocate that we destroy all alcoholic spirits and breweries, because his conviction and what he has imposed on himself isn't Gospel truth, and therefore doesn't apply to anyone else.
Umm, lost here, as far as I know I didn't say anything about your parents and alcohol. I didn't even know they drank alcohol.
Quote:
What I am saying is, you shouldn't impose your convictions on others. One, they'll resent you even if you speak 'lex cathedra,' and second, taking a sledgehammer to every TV is destruction of private property. This is why I feel strongly that Billy Sunday was wrong for taking a sledgehammer to cases of whiskey hidden in speakeasies, even if it was illegal to sell liquor back then. God might ask something of you, perhaps to give something up, but that doesn't mean that the thing in itself is evil and destructive for all, it just is for you.
Um, if those convictions are biblical then I'm not speaking lex cathedra the bible is...and uh, it's okay for people to get offended sometimes. Sometimes it is good for them. And if you shouldn't persuade people to your convictions, why are you trying to persuade me to yours?
Quote:
Here's what also puzzles me: you said "those convictions are vital to the quality of our relationship with our future spouse."I feel that is in error. A quality of a relationship shouldn't be based on shared convictions, but should be based on God, and what you can give to the relationship. I have known many couples who are very dissimilar and didn't have the same convictions but ended up having a quality relationship, because they made it more important than any conviction they had.
The convictions I hold are mandates given to me by God. If I cannot uphold them, I will be less than what God has called me to be. And I will not be to my wife all that I should be...so yes, convictions do have bearing on relationship.
Take Sampson for example. He was a very gifted man but he was ruled by his passions. Had he been obedient to all the mandates God had given him, he could have been used for much greater glory than he was.
Quote:
Tsheej, I respect anyone who has strongly held beliefs, but I question their dedication to them if it will be a cause for strife in human relationships. That's what I was doing with Marlana's posts. I simply asked if it was more important to her to maintain loyalty to her convictions or to have a good relationship with her future spouse. She can keep her convictions, but if she is married they shouldn't be as important to her as they are right now. That's all I am saying.
Trust me, I wouldn't marry someone who found these convictions I hold to to be burdensome. But if I recall, Jesus did not bring peace to the earth but division because he restored the possibility of right living into the world. There are better ways to live and they come at a price. One of those costs is TV/Video/Video Games.
Matt wrote:
Marlana, here's a tough question for you: what would happen if your husband all of a sudden didn't feel the conviction to be a missionary, that perhaps God was calling him elsewhere? What would your response be? I would challenge you to think in terms of which is more important to you, your relationship with your husband or your calling to be a missionary? While it is nice to be married to a man who shares your vision and your dream, you must determine that the vision or the dream takes secondary or back burner importance to your relationship with your spouse. "She that is married careth for the things of the world, how she may please her husband."
I respect you for your convictions, as I'm sure we all do, but I do think that your zeal for them can cause a myriad of problems, especially if you are married.
I do think your description concerning commitment after signing the marriage license is either misguided or flat out wrong. I am not married, so I can not speak with authority here, but I do know that when you speak your vows, you pledge to love the other in all circumstances, even in a loss of your shared vision and calling. Your job is not to hold your spouse to the calling that first attracted you to them (if that's the case then you fell in love with their calling rather than with them) but to support them and understand them.
Convictions change as people change, and the best example I know of is to cite my parents. I grew up in a very conservative Christian home, to the point that we tried to ape the Mennonites. So imagine the shock our "plain" friends feel when our former convictions on modesty and the covering, not watching TV and listening to secular music, all which went out the window along with our legalism. My parents didn't backslide, they just came to understand that their convictions weren't God's convictions. And to show just how far they've come, my parents even had a real daiquiri (with rum in it) tonight as part of celebrating my sister's birthday.
Marlana, are your convictions more important to you than relationships? Think about it.
Well, Matt, I ain't Marlana, but I am going to respond. Once I'm married my commitment is to my spouse for better or for worse regardless of what happens. But convictions are requirements for marriage. Jim Elliot refused to marry Elizabeth Elliot until she had learned the Auca language. That was how fundamental his calling was and that was how committed Elizabeth was to that calling.
I will not marry someone who is not have the same burden for SE Asia that I do. There is nothing worse than a couple who lacks a shared vision. I saw it with my own eyes. My professor TK Kettlekamp was in love with Honduras. But he was an aweful professor. He was great at leading the yearly trip to honduras...but he was a scourge on the teaching profession which has little honor left anyway. One year he even took his family to Honduras for a year. But while he was passionately in love with the people of Honduras his wife just couldn't seem to dig it. And so he pines his years away at Houghton teaching (something he hates) because his wife doesn't like Honduras. I was sitting in his office one day to talk to him about college related stuff and he got an email from Honduras and started reading it and he became animated as he was telling me about. TK, I said, "you don't belong here, you belong in Honduras. What are you doing here?" and he burst into tears.
When I was in Russia, the director of the program I was on, his name was Harley Wagner and he had been a missionary in the communist block all his life; first in Bulgaria, then in Yugoslavia, and now he ran the Christian College program in Russia. He told us a story about a guy I'll name Max when he lived in Yugoslavia.
At the time he was working in the local church in Yugoslavia and Max came out from America for some reason or other and while out helping on some project or going about his business or whatever, Max saw a girl in the local church he liked and made up his mind he was going to marry her. She didn't feel the same way. But Max, being the egotistical American he was pursued her until she said yes. They married much to Harvey's surprise and Max settled down in Yugoslavia. 7-8 years later when Max had a full blown family with kids and all he came to Harvey and he said, "I wish I could love these people like you do. I can't stand them." Harvey said, "if that's the way you feel about the people here, you need to take your wife and kids and get out of the country. Do it now. Do it fast." "How will I take my family away from here? he said. I can't do it."
Several weeks later, Max was driving down the freeway...he put his foot on the accelerator and held it there until impact. A united vision is essential!
I think Matt, what you haven't understood is that, these convictions that Marlana and I have; those convictions are vital to the quality of our relationship with our future spouse.
Take TV for example. It is a life and death matter for me. It's as destructive to me as alcohol to an alcoholic. And its destructive to you more than you care or realize. In your case, or your parents case, yes, there was a compromise. A compromise for the worse. That's why I say it is me or the tv but not both...because I will never be able to be the man I am called to be with it in the house. There is only one purpose for television just as there is only one purpose for the Silver Chair in CS Lewis Narnia chronicles. Destruction. I would thoroughly enjoy a sledgehammer to a television any day of the week.
Honestly this thread boggles me.
I never said anything about a man beating my kids. I cannot impose a man not to separate himself.
I never said my ministry comes before my family. In fact, if you go to the Biblical and Theological Forum, you will find a work thread where I (as does Tsheej) make the case for 20 pages that jobs in the corporation have taken the place of the family. No matter how one looks at it if a man works outside the home eight hours a day, something has gone. So if we are ever going to see change in the world and not neglect our family, we need moms and dads to come home, and we need to build communities, and we need home ministries that involve all the members of the family. (I'm not going to debate that point here, but feel free to read the thread if you have any doubts that I believe my family comes after ministry.)
I never said God cannot change us. I cannot emphasize enough: opportunities build on each other. Yes, I want to see a new family movement within Asia, but if I/we have books written, and they lead to a movement in the states, I'm glad to see the spirit move. I can simply think of hundreds of opportunities, and I'm sure there are thousands that God could bring because opportunities are like spider webs.
Here's what I said:
1.) Divorce is not an option for ME.
2.) Our family must have a home different than the world (see my statement right after my list) so that people in the community have an example of proper discipline and respect. In America social work is done outside the home; people are given food stamps, thinking they'll eventually want to work. I'm looking at a radically different approach that involves maximizing the power of the family. We just can't have all these things that seem harmless in America going on with that kind of ministry.
3.) My children cannot be in school while #2 takes place. For one, that would be putting my ministry before them (and that is NOT an option). For two, the broken children in the community will need to see our children in the home because that's the whole point of the ministry.
4.) My husband and I will hold each other accountable and aid each other in our passion. This is NOT saying I'm closed-minded to change, but it is easy to give up. And we're there to remind each other, "Why are we here? Why are we doing this?" I know I have days when I just want to pull out the same curriculum as the rest of the teachers and buy a TV and live like the rest of the world.
5.) I cannot fulfill my calling alone anymore than Doug Philips could be president of vision forum as a single man. BTW, I once said I wouldn't get married; God changed that. lol
_________
Now I'm going to the HSA skate party in Dallas this afternoon. Should be fun to meet some folks in person.
Darcy wrote:
Marlana wrote:
Darcy wrote: You know how many women I know who are now divorced because they "held to their convictions" and tried to hold their husbands to them??
Excellent point! I do not support convictions that are to the determent of the family; I support the ones who uplift the family as God intended!
Hate to tell you this, but all those women I mentioned are divorced because of one or more of these very convictions:
Quote: Live with debt
Have my children in a school
Have a TV on
Feed my family bad food
Have barriers in my house
Add b/c, even NFP, and the list is pretty complete. How far are you willing to go?
I will NEVER sign divorce papers with my two hands, no indeed, never.
I'm frustrated with myself because I can't convey what I'm trying to say.
I have no intention of forcing my husband to anything. But my list: no debt, no public schooling, no consistently making me cook junk food, missions-family bound -- what is so difficult about finding a person who shares those conviction? (Understanding, of course, that only God brings a couple together.)
I'm saying this: I must start marriage with a vision for the two of us. And from that base our conviction stem.
Christi Rose wrote:
Marlana wrote:
PamelaVV wrote:
Christi Rose wrote: It doesn't matter if you have the "same vision" or share all the same convictions. I cannot name a single person who has remained exactly the same, from their twenties to the end of their life. The idea really just defies logic.
I think this is why Marlana believes she should hold to her convictions so strongly, so that if her husband's waver at some point...she can continue to hold him to them. That's if I understand her intended approach...
Practically speaking, I can only see this working if you start the same and never change or if one person absolutely defers to the other. I think this is the case in many home school homes where Mom ultimately calls the shots because she has the stronger/stricter convictions.
You're on the track.
Okay, so you are acknowledging that it is possible (though perhaps improbable) for your husband's convictions to change? I don't want to put words in your mouth, but if I am following this correctly, you are saying that you will hold your husband to your convictions even if his change?
No, not at all. I'm open for new ones. GRIN
I could never support debt, cultural media, junk food, stuff like that.
Read the rest of the message. I defined where I was driving at -- why certain things are so important.
Before someone beats me to it!
Quote: I fully agree with you that women need to have convictions as well as men. Frankly though, all the convictions in the world without some real life support are not going to get that wife thru the situation you are describing without feeling burned out. Burn out happens the often to those who are the most firm in convictions, because they are so rigid and give themselves and others no room to rest and be refreshed. They are so busy "redeeming the time" that they never relax and rest in the Lord for a time of refreshing. Some are indeed burned out because they do not have a vision, but others are burned out because all they have is the vision. They sacrifice everything else in their life to it in a way that is unbalanced. They often have very resentful children and spouses, that Hate the religion that robbed them of their spouse, mom, dad,and fun. Balance in all things is so important!
AMEN! Men create laws to control behavior. In high school I had a friend who tried to hold me accountable for every word that came out of my point; he was trying to solve my tongue.
It did not work. I became resentful, and the more I tried to focus on the law, the more I found that I did what I willed not to do!
But when I came in terms of my sin, got down on my knees, and asked God to pump His life through me, and I relied in Him, my social skills changed a lot!
Now I'm not saying accountability does not have its place within the church, but I do agree that laws that are meant to control behavior do not work.
The convictions I have espoused are not meant to control behavior. I'm looking at God's plan for my family and ministry, and I'm willing to give up the comforts of this world (as as comfort food) for the cause of Christ.
Burn out also happens when men and women try to live life in their own strength. God has made it clear -- he does not need us. He has chosen to pump his life in us. We have to open ourselves up and ask him to move in us and mold us and use us to change the world.
Hudson Taylor put it this way:
I used to ask God to help me.
Then I asked God if I might help him.
I ended up by asking Him to live His life through me.
That last point, my friends, is what made Hudson Taylor's ministry be effective. You are right: he had the vision all along. But when he was trying to do "good" for God in His own strength, his plans did fail.
PamelaVV wrote:
Christi Rose wrote: It doesn't matter if you have the "same vision" or share all the same convictions. I cannot name a single person who has remained exactly the same, from their twenties to the end of their life. The idea really just defies logic.
I think this is why Marlana believes she should hold to her convictions so strongly, so that if her husband's waver at some point...she can continue to hold him to them. That's if I understand her intended approach...
Practically speaking, I can only see this working if you start the same and never change or if one person absolutely defers to the other. I think this is the case in many home school homes where Mom ultimately calls the shots because she has the stronger/stricter convictions.
You're on the track.
Think about it this way, Christi. If you and your husband were called to go be missionaries of X country, you and your family might have to change what you wear. I had a friend, for example, who wore pants in Texas, but she wears dresses in her African village.
You see, when God has called a family for a specific ministry, it comes with its convictions.
I could not:
Live with debt
Have my children in a school
Have a TV on
Feed my family bad food
Have barriers in my house
-- not and have a home open to hurting people who need a family example.
I know the argument:
Quote: God has established the man as the head of the family. For good or bad, the buck stops with him. Yes, he should discuss it with his wife and use her as his God-ordained helpmeet, but whether he is making sense or not, the woman should follow his leading.
But my husband needs his convictions to also be my convictions. This world is not a world of comfort anymore, folks. And when the kids get a disease, her husband is in jail, and the authorities are trying to monitor their kids "schooling," the woman needs to have the convictions, too.
Many people get burned out or can't face the next day because they lack conviction or passion.
